Sony X9005A Owners & Netflix 4k/HEVC Codec

[sound10]

Hi as a current owner of the 2013 55X9005A, I am wondering what Sony is planning to do for us early adopters with regards to Netflix 4k/ HEVC H.265 Codec. I hope that we early adopters are not going to be left out in the cold !

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Naaah, definately not ganged up on  - I think its a clearly vailid point actually in regards to the placing of the feet of the new 4K TV's.  Ive done a google image search, and cannot find one picture of the feet being placed in the middle.

In time, I think the H.265 codec, as well as Googles VP9 will/should be integrated into bluray players and other devices - therefore cost's associated with this will be reduced.  Unless you really have to have the latest (and can afford to do so), might be best to hold off a while until things settle down. 

Really what im saying is, enjoy the picture quality of the TV - as it really is excellent and in time im sure things will sort themselves out.  If you must have it now - the FMP-X5 is the answer.

[pmclaughlin]

@Anonymous

Please, please, please, stop with the “The solution to this problem has been announced”! Here's a link to a £350 box that is need to pay a patent license with a profit.

By continuing to perpetuate this marketing rubbish, Sony continue to insult the intelligence of their biggest spending TV home consumers, when they really can't afford to lose more TV buying customers based on their last half decade of financials.

It only takes a tiny 160GFlops/s of programmable DSP to encode H.265 stream, and almost certainly less than one quarter of that(40GFlops/s) to decode a 4K h.265 netflix stream(of 15Mbps). So if you will insist in pushing their marketing argument, that they can't fix this via firmware, then actually quote some real computer science to back it up.

In a world of electronics from ARM OpenGL ES smartphones, Cell Be powered Smart TVs to Heterogeneous Cloud computing; all ubiquitously using (hardware accelerated) programmable shaders, Opencl, Cuda, DirectCompute since the dawn of the mighty Ps3 and Cell Be processor and ATI 8500 Radeon (back in 2004/05), do they really think Sony 4K Tv owners (like me) won't feel completely affronted by such poor value?

My last four flagship TVs have been A KD-32-X200U, KDL-46X3000, KDL-22ES5300 and now a KD-55X9005A. But my next TV will certainly not be a Sony, if they don't remedy this unacceptable support issue.

If they said it will take £100 to pay for the patent for the firmware, then fair enough. Not ideal, although workable. But I will certainly not be using a PS4/PS3 (that I own) or any other patent box to decode h.265 data with this TV, when it already contains all the hardware it needs to do the job.

[Catmambo]

Hi

h.265 is simply too young a standard to have widespread support from devices released last year which would have been spec'd even earlier. Indeed there are doubts whether next gen consoles can manage h.265

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/156790-xbox-one-and-ps4-analyzing-their-support-for-4k-video-and-g...

So mindful consoles will struggle, its not really a suprise that TV's released in the same timeframe will require additional hardware to ensure compatibility. This idea of breakout boxes offering additonal support isn't new, Samsung have been doing it for a few years with their Evolution kit  - indeed here is a link to their 2014 4k Evolution kit which offers the same HEVC/h.265 upgrade to users who bought 4K sets

http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-2014-evolution-kit-brings-uhd-umax-channels-to-older-tv-sets-283266...

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Thanks

[pmclaughlin]

@Catmambo

The refinement of the 'software' algorithm standard has little relevance to the X9005A's fully programmable DSP not being retasked to 'decode'(not 'encode') a h.265 4K data stream.

Look at this pdf of a board with just 160GFlops/s for 'encoding' h.256 with 10watts of power.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/sprt661/sprt661.pdf

“The rapid move to these new standards and higher formats require programmable implementations as time to market is critical and the delay to build dedicated hardware could mean missing critical market windows. In addition, changes are still coming on all these fronts so programmable systems add the crucial ability to provide field upgrades as the industry moves to these new formats. Texas Instruments’ multicore processors offer the high-performance processing capabilities that these applications require, with full programmability in a cost- and power-optimized package.”

Are X9005A customers to believe that something, an old Toshiba Regza TV(with Cell Be processor ) can do if desired, can't be done by all the programmable 'smart' 4K Tvs by Sony? Pull the other one.

The more people try to defend Sony's wrong business decision, in not bringing h.265 'decoding' via a TV firmware update (to all 4K capable hardware), the worse their financial troubles in the TV market are likely to get in the future.

[Anonymous]

Hi there pmclauglin

In your first post on this topic you asked about stopping the "The solution to the problem has been announced" - Im not sure what you mean by that, but there is a solution - the FMP-X5 - You might not like the solution or the cost of it, but it in this case, it is the solution to the problem of HEVC support on 2013 4K Tv's.  Sorry.

In regards to defending Sony by "continuing to perpetuate this marketing rubbish" - Im a person who generally says what I think (of which it does "occasionally" get me into hotwater) - If Sony have done a ***** job, I will say so.  In this case though, I dont believe so. (personal opinion). 

I do agree however that the cost of £350rrp is steep and excessive.  However I would assume part of this cost will also have to be about manufacturing quantities - ie, far cheaper per unit when building millions, but more costly per unit when building thousands.  Economies of scale as such.

At this stage, I cannot see an urgency in having HEVC (Im going to call it H.265 from now on, im sick of the double names!!) support.  So I personally would wait until greater adoption of devices (as well as googles VP9 codec too) - hence not paying the £350.

In regards to facts to back-up the firmware option you mentioned - I do not know enough on the technical aspects of what components are used in 2013 TV's - I have not been able to ascertain a service manual or anything for that matter - so cannot categorically say it cannot be done - but from everything I know about TV's (Sony) and H.265 leads me to state that it cannot be done - It just doesnt have the hardware.

According to : HERE

"For H.265 to take off, chipmakers will have to release hardware that supports HEVC decoding." 

For the 2013 4K TV's, as you maybe aware, even though they are manufacturered in that year - the design process (hardware) starts much earlier than that.  I dont know how much further back. 

I also note (PS: thank you for the PDF like - ill read it thouroughly later) that the PDF document is dated 2013.  This could therefore support the arguement that the hardware was NOT in place when the 2013 TV's were designed.  I cannot comment on the Toshiba Cell b processor - I know nothing....

When the H.264 was first released, I remember it also being processor intensive - over time, the H.264 was improved / optimised (as well as processing) - and I would expect the same with H.265

To conclude -

As far as Im aware, there are 5 stages of a consumer product life cycle (refering to generational/evolutionary change in technology)

1. Introduction
2. Growth
3. Maturity
4. Saturation
5. Decline

The 2013 4K TV adopters (such as yourself) fit in the introduction stage - this is where cost of the product is at its highest and that technical aspects may not have been fully implemented/solved.  Unfortunately the specifications of the H.265 was not ratiffied in time for the 2013 4K TV's (hence HDMI 2.0 saga also) and do not "believe" that this can be done with a FW update.

Please dont read anything into my reply other than for discussion

Cheers

Edit: I probably also should mention that no other manufacturer are implemementing H.265 via a FW update - Panasonic and LG have NO solution to this, whereas Sony and Samsung have external boxes.  So its not just Sony refusing to do so (and why would they) - therefore logically this cannot be done.

[pmclaughlin]

@Anonymous

“In regards to facts to back-up the firmware option you mentioned - I do not know enough on the technical aspects of what components are used in 2013 TV's - I have not been able to ascertain a service manual or anything for that matter - so cannot categorically say it cannot be done - but from everything I know about TV's (Sony) and H.265 leads me to state that it cannot be done - It just doesnt have the hardware.”

Well let me make it easy for you. I do know enough about computer science and DSP to tell you that the hardware is definitely capable of being reprogrammed for 'decoding' H.265 with plenty of head room. So in the absence of anything technically specific from a Sony engineer to add fuel to the fire, please hold back from perpetuating that these Sony 4K lack enough programmable DSP for the task.

The Sony, Toshiba, IBM developed CELL BE processor has more programmable DSP than the h.265 'encoding' Texas Instruments board has and is present in many old(2008 onwards) Toshiba Regza TVs and nearly 100M ps3s (2006). So the notion that a £3,000, 5 years younger 4K 'smart'(programmable) TV from Sony, is less equipped for the lighter task of H.265 netflix decoding is nonsense; even without knowing the exact technical specs of the actual DSP boards used.

It would have taken a monumental design sabotage effort from Sony(and other mfrs), to have developed any 4K Smart TV in the last few years that couldn't provide enough programmable DSP to decode a 4K netflix h.265 stream if they could just be bothered to improve the firmware.

[Anonymous]

Hi there

Im not eductated in computer science and dont know enough about programmable DSP's to debate this issue (unfortunately)

You said "hardware is definitely capable of being reprogrammed for 'decoding' H.265" - Is that in the X9005A TV's or is that hardware in general?  (Have you opened up your TV and had a look at the PCB's?)

My advice is then to write a letter to Sony @ Weybridge for a more detailed explaination of why it cannot be done - and not phoning/emailing support.

Cheers

[pmclaughlin]

@Anonymous

It can be done, these DSP boards are not fixed path DSP, and haven't been for quite some years. so it must be purely a business decision for the manufacturers. One that probably saves them money on firmware support for older screens like the X9005A and avoids paying a fee for a h.265 patent license and a fee to netflix for them to support the device. The FMP-X5 is purely a mechanism to sell an unnecessary box at profit to cover these costs. So what would be the point in writing to Weybridge?

If I have to go to those lengths to get a slightly more elaborate excuse, as to why my Sony product falls below my expectations, then I might as well just follow the crowd in future, and choose the competitor's flagship product at the lower price, so I can lower my expectations to level they are now at and at least feel I got the value I expected.

Disgruntled 4K TV customers is not a good backdrop for Sony's 4K TV sales plans. They really need to be pushing out as many codecs(decoders) for all current 4K screens, and getting the worldcup streamed using one of them(probably h.265), to help 4K owners sell the benefits of 4K in the UK virally, and encourage people to subscribe or to buy premium digital content, instead of cancelling netflix, like I have.

[Batfinkk]

How would Sony stream the world cup in 4k? The don't have live broadcast rights? These are held by various broadcasters in each country.

[pmclaughlin]

@Batfinkk

They could easily team up with the BBC/ITV to provide the 4K streams(H.265) delivered through iplayer and Itvplayer to 4K Tv owners, in the same way they are doing some or all of the WC in 4K for Japan.